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Lingual and Inferior Alveolar Nerve Damage Discussion Site

Subject: "a Legal Perspective"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences Burning Mouth Syndrome Discussion Topic #11
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Lisa H
unregistered user
Jan-24-02, 07:34 PM (CST)
 
"a Legal Perspective"
 
   FOr all whom are suffering this bizarre problem:
Its been eight days since I had a "Mandibular Block" of which I was not informed of in the first place and also was not advised of the risks that could occur. Hmmmmmm.......Seems like there could be a possibility of a legal pursuit here....Has anyone here in this forum contacted a lawyer??? ALL I know is I was FINE ......Just Fine prior to having an injection at the dentists office eight days ago for a SIMPLE filling! NOw I am experiencing numbness, loss of taste , severe
penetrating burning sensations of my tongue. And YES .....I am bitter, angry and if I can't get my tongue back the way it WAS I want to perhaps persue a legal avenue. I have worked in the medical field for the past 15 years and it is MANDATORY to inform patients undergoing procedures that may cause loss of life/ disability ( and that means paralysis) that we inform them of the risks and obtain a CONSENT.....an injection is STILL an invasive procedure.....Any thoughts on this from your perspectives????
Thanks for READING
Lisa H. ( worried in florida )


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: a Legal Perspective Carole Mar-26-02 1
     RE: a Legal Perspective Iam301 Aug-06-07 5
     RE: a Legal Perspective pim Aug-22-07 6
  RE: a Legal Perspective Rossadmin Mar-26-02 2
     RE: a Legal Perspective mickhall6767 Aug-05-07 4
     RE: a Legal Perspective Bob Sep-29-07 7
  RE: a Legal Perspective laura Oct-07-02 3
  RE: a Legal Perspective skennison May-14-08 8
     RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-14-08 9
     RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-15-08 10
         RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-15-08 11
             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-16-08 12
                 RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-16-08 13
                     RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-16-08 14
                         RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-17-08 15
                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-18-08 16
                                 RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-18-08 17
                                     RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-18-08 18
                                         RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-20-08 19
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-23-08 22
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective bowho May-23-08 24
                                         RE: a Legal Perspective MaverickDMD May-23-08 20
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-23-08 21
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob May-23-08 23
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective MaverickDMD Jun-27-08 25
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob Jun-27-08 26
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective MaverickDMD Jun-27-08 27
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob Jun-27-08 28
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective MaverickDMD Jun-28-08 29
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob Jun-28-08 31
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective charlottefr Jun-28-08 30
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Dr B Jun-29-08 32
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective bowho Jun-29-08 33
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective MaverickDMD Jul-04-08 34
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective charlottefr Jul-05-08 35
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective MaverickDMD Jul-06-08 36
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective Bob Jul-06-08 37
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective bowho Jul-06-08 38
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective charlottefr Jul-07-08 39
                                             RE: a Legal Perspective bowho Jul-07-08 40

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Carole
unregistered user
Mar-26-02, 08:51 PM (CST)
 
1. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #0
 
   Just saw your post today., Did you get any help at all?I see some of my posts are missing. Computer not working well. Spoke to at least fifteen attorneys, closed shop, good old boy network. No-one wants to testify against a fellow Dr. plus attorneys don't think they can convince the jury. The dentists will fight hard to keep their malpractice insurance intact. No-one repeat no-one cares about us the consumers/damaged patients. post and let me know how you are doing. I agreed with Matt and Lillie that we should band together and try and change legislation. But got no reply from Ross, though he said he has gotten more requests and is looking into it, or words to that effect. In this state the Dental Board does not even have to divulge complaints against the dentists., This is public knowledge in other states. Carole


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Iam301
Member since May-18-07
51 posts
Aug-06-07, 01:15 PM (CST)
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5. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #1
 
   I also received my permanent inferior alveolar nerve injury here in Florida Jan.5 2007. When you wrote "in this state" are you refering to the state of Florida. I've sent my complaints to the dental board and are am waiting for a response back. Do you know how long this takes to see if a disclipine can be filed on the surgeon who gave me a botched biopsy removing and then hiding the paperwork that he also removed a large bundle of nerves? I would love to do whatever I could to help change the legislation so that others like us are at the very least informed that we could be left with a permanent nerve injury and what that means. Nicole


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pim
Member since Oct-19-06
251 posts
Aug-22-07, 07:07 PM (CST)
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6. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #1
 
   What state are you in? In my state they have to divulge the information but you just about have to beg for it. It is kept under lock and key. Any dental board who doesn't post and/or provide disciplinary action is obviously not fulfilling their mandated function of protecting the public.


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Rossadmin
Member since Apr-21-07
1188 posts
Mar-26-02, 09:50 PM (CST)
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2. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #0
 
   Lisa,

What I know about your injury is on the site at:
http://www.sciential.net/lingual_nerve_injury_from_anesth.htm

Hopefully you have recovered by the time you read this, as it has been a while.


Ross


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mickhall6767
Member since Aug-5-07
1 posts
Aug-05-07, 10:34 PM (CST)
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4. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #2
 
   Hi Lisa

Although my situation is quite different as had a surgery what I thought was to remove some stones in saliva gland canal but turned out to be he removal of a tumor (benign, TG ) the Dr. performing this surgery, an ENT, severed either the lingual nerve or mylohyoid, not sure yet which. Anyway as for the legal aspect I have good friend who is efficient lawyer, ( successful ) who is pursuing a malpractice lawsuit seeing as how I had to have another surgery by a second Dr. to reconnect the nerve. I have slurred speech, tongue biting, trouble eating, crooked smile, look like suffered mild stroke, lost weight ( not all bad ) and just generally altered. Personally I feel the first Dr.'s insurance ought pay at the least for the repair work, hey, one shouldn't operate on human being unless you know where all the parts are and can manuever with skill. I am in construction work and if I break something I am responsible, and we are talking about innaminate objects, not a human being! If this is permanent, you can bet your farm that I will seek compensation for this Dr.'s mistake, I trusted him to know what and do what he was trained and certified to do. A simple "oops" is totally unacceptable when you are altered for life.
Regards, Mike

mike h


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
Sep-29-07, 10:42 PM (CST)
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7. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #2
 
   Ross,

On your web page you state that at least 85% of lingual nerve injuries due to anesthetic injections eventually recover, and further you said you have spoken with someone who as talked to over 500 people with this injury. Does this person feel the recovery rate is as high as 85%? I have lingual nerve damage from a Septocaine injection given about 10 weeks ago and still experience the horrible numbness, tingling, burning pain and stiffness of my tongue, right side. My taste is also altered as is my hearing believe it or not. At times I think it feels a bit better only to awaken the next day to feel like I'm back to square one. I haven't read about many recovering from this injury due to articaine... most of the recoveries are related to surgical injury, not anesthetic injury. I spoke with Dr. Tony Pogrel in San Francisco who told me two things... surgery is not an option as it is ineffective for this condition and that if the paresthesia isn't resolved by three months the prognosis for recovery becomes "poor". This I find hard to believe because many have recovered after several months, up to a year in some cases. Looking forward to your reply.

Bob


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laura
unregistered user
Oct-07-02, 10:44 AM (CST)
 
3. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #0
 
   Lisa:

I know that it has been quite a while since your procedure. Has the sensation come back to your tongue yet? I had a root canal on a lower left molar 6 days ago and my tongue on the left side is partially numb and I have a huge lump-like feeling underneath it that is also partially numb. I also get the burning tingly feeling on my tongue that is really bad when I brush my teeth. I too was wondering what liablity dentists have in these instances. I was not told that this was a risk and have had numerous dental procedures done and never had this happen before. I cannot even imagine if this is permanent and I just have to learn to live with it. It is not painful most of the time, just extremely irritating. My tongue and underneath it feels like it is 10 times the normal size and I have difficulty speaking sometimes. I thought this was a rare occurence, but after reading all of these stories, it happens too often. It is good to know that someone knows what I am going through. Let me know if you have had improvements since your procedure. Thanks!!

Laura


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skennison
Member since May-7-08
3 posts
May-14-08, 04:27 PM (CST)
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8. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #0
 
   your posting was really a long time ago and I am wondering if you will see this reply. Regardless, I have suffered with bms going on three years and I KNOW it was caused by an injection for a filling. The dentist had difficulty numbing my jaw so she gave me about six injections and a very short time later I developed a metallic taste and then about a year later it changed to a horrific burning of the tongue. I have been to numberous specialists and know take clonazapam but with no relief. I didn't know either that an injection could cause such a terrible situation and I just blindly let my dentist do whatever they wanted because I assumed I was in safe hands. My mom says I should sue but when I consulted a malpractice lawyer he said I would have to prove that the injection caused my condition and he was very sure I wouldn't have a case. How is your situation and did you seek legal course? I hope your situation has improved. This is no way to live. Sandy


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-14-08, 06:01 PM (CST)
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9. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #8
 
   sorry to hear of your burning tongue...since your injury happened 3 years ago its to late to sue...i have a numb burning tongue...i know how bad it sucks..


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-15-08, 10:59 PM (CST)
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10. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #8
 
   Suing is difficult at best. I live in CA and medical malpractice is limited to $250,000.00 in damages. Not many attorneys would want the case because of the expenses involved... even if you win the award is hardly worth it after expenses. Second, you have to prove neglegence, very difficult for injectional injuries (although not impossible). Another approach is to sue the manufacturer and distributor of Articaine (Septodont) for distrbution of a dangerous substance. Difficult... FDA has approved this stuff (thanks to Stan Malamed, schill for Septodont), and the company itself has WARNED about the dangers of paresthesia and dysesthesia on the brochure sent with the drug. This would be costly and time consuming... not easy. There is NO QUESTION that the dental profession, along with the medical profession, having very strong lobbyists, have shut out the consumer from any sort of protection from damage or legal recourse. This is a crime, make no mistake, but our legislators are as guilty as any for taking their bribes to get their one sided legislation passed. Also, informed consent is NOT mandatory for "routine" procedures such as anesthetic injections... INCREDIBLE I know, but this is another example of how criminal enterprises have shut out the consumer protections. That being said, I am in the process of investigating my chances of suing. I'm really, really pissed. Not only was I not informed, but Septodont itself warns the dentist of the possibility of nerve damage on the enclosed brochure! The dentist SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO CONVEY THIS TO THE PATIENT. I'll let you all know what happens... this won't be easy, but I am determined.


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-15-08, 11:43 PM (CST)
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11. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #10
 
   Bob, did you find out what the statue of limitations are in your state ? i would say the fact that your mouth is still messed up is proof enough that something went wrong during your procedure..there are experts in this field who will help you win a case..dont take the advice of 1 attorney..you could call a criminal attorney and see if they can hook you up with an aggressive money sucking malpractice attorney out of the area where your procedure was performed...of course this is just my opinion..


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-16-08, 09:08 AM (CST)
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12. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #11
 
   bowho,

Thanks. The statue of limitations is two years. I'll give my present attorney a few more weeks to decide if he'll take my case... in not I'll have to look further. There have been several who refused to take it. I just don't think there is enough money in it for them. My present attorney is young and hungry, so I'm hoping he'll decide to go for it but it's expensive and time consuming even though he will take it on a contingency basis.


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-16-08, 02:34 PM (CST)
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13. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #12
 
   BOB,
Make sure you ask any attorney you retain DO YOU CARRY INSURANCE !! the majority of them DO NOT...and dont think you wont have to watch every step they make..keep your nose up their ASS EVERY WEEK..
i learned the hard way that even lawyers cant be trusted...i think ive said this before ill say it again..my attorney filed my case 23 days late..i was on his ass monthly there was really no excuse...
but like mavee says ##### happens..
oh he still proceeded even went as far as depositions..paid DR B FOR MY EXPERT REPORT..maybe unless he claimed that in bankrupcy court i dont know for sure..but i do have her report..he failed to show up for court with that report on time and never told me..i found that out from another attorney that i contacted to sue him for not filing on time..thats when i found out he didnt have insurance..he told me to file a complaint against him so i filed a complaint with the bar association...
the dentists lawyers didnt dispute that i should receive judgement in my favor only the fact that it wasnt filed on time..3 months ago i went to court for that.. real fun reliving my nitemare in front of 10 attorneys and a few judges...when my attorney met me down at a local BAR AND HANDED OVER MY CASE FILE..HE SAID SORRY ITS ONLY MONEY..THATS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID TO HIM in the court room that day...
2 weeks ago i received notice that he is in fact GUILTY OF NEGLECTING MY CASE..5 counts..they recommend that that he get a 6 month suspension from law practice and ordered to take OFFICE MANAGEMENT CLASSES..he blamed it on his new computer system..ISNT THAT A HOOT..of course hes trying fight the charges..hes been an attorney for 38 years...
its off to the supreme court who will make the final decision..now that i have the state as my expert witness in this case im proceeding to sue the bastard in civil court..which really wont cost me a whole lot of money..and i hope to recoup the amount i put out on this nitemare over 6 1/2 years..bad enough to still be suffering nerve damage on top of the stress of that BS..ill keep posted on that ordeal..good luck with yours..


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-16-08, 08:07 PM (CST)
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14. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #13
 
   Wow... you have quite an ordeal. I didn't know to ask if he carries insurance... what type and what is it for... malpractice? Thanks for your help. BTW if he decides to take my case (he hasn't yet) it will be on a contingency basis. It'll cost me some (half for the expert witness) but not as much as if I were paying by the hour.

Bob


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-17-08, 03:05 PM (CST)
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15. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-17-08 AT 03:08 PM (CST)
 
Yeah id say quite of an ordeal living nitemare !! i didnt think to ask either.. live & learn all part of life.. thats legal malpractice insurance .. i have found that scum bag attorneys practice without it.. along with probably more than half of our wonderful dentists in the world.. isnt that an eye opener ? since you have another year, shop around.. you should not have to put 1 dime out in the expense.. thats what contingency means.. the agreement i had was that he would get 30% of the award or maybe 33% .. you would have a better chance finding an attorney whos specialty is dental injuries.. preferably a dentist/attorney.. just like DR B. maybe you should ask her to hook you up ? she is also an expert witness for these cases.. why my goodness..what your looking for is right here..GO FOR IT BOB


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-18-08, 01:44 AM (CST)
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16. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #15
 
   I'm having a heck of a time finding an attorney that will even take my case. That's why I'm waiting for this new lawyer to get back to me with his answer. I've had attorney's referred to me and when I tell them about my case they won't take it. Apparently it's easier to prosecute a nerve injury that was surgically damaged as opposed to chemically from an injection.... easier to prove neglegence or malpractice I would guess. I'm still on it though, and I appreciate your advice as well. Will let the board know what happens one way or another.

Bob


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-18-08, 11:13 AM (CST)
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17. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #16
 
   I saw you posted that you still have your wisdom teeth.. What did you have done ? Filling or root canal ? You must have felt the shocking zap from the shot that made you scream in agony ? Were your symptoms of the nerve damage immediate ? Mine was... Did the dentist treat you properly after the fact ? I will tell you that out of the dentist that did this to me and 2 os and a omfs not one of them told me that it was the injection or the extraction that caused the damage.. No one even told me it was the lingual nerve damaged !! After i had repair surgery and read the report myself was when i found out.. I do know that the extraction was worse than the shot and the shot REALLY HURT BAD.. I know how lucky i am to be 80% better after 6 1/2 years too...


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-18-08, 11:53 PM (CST)
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18. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #17
 
   bowho - I had a lower mandibular nerve block with articaine for a root canal procedure. It was this injection that damaged my lingual nerve. The dentist that did it admitted his error when I complained of continued numbness and burning... and yes he said he was "sorry"! He said the burning was a "good" sign, a sign that the nerves are regenerating!!!! 10 months later I still have the burning. Unreal. I did not have the electrical shock that many experience... I had local pain where the injection was performed, but no shocking sensation. I became instantaneously numb, and of course it never dissipated. For the first seven months I was insane... and thoughts of suicide and worse crept in from time to time. I'm not that way now, although my temper is still a bit short. At least I think I have my sanity back, but I AM pissed at the dentist for doing this to me, and now hope I can sue successfully. It's proving to be difficult, there are so many roadblocks set up by the dental profession in conjunction with the insurance industry and of course congress. Limiting damages to $250K is criminal. They knew that lawyers wouldn't want to pursue this because the expenses can run over 100K by the time it's all over. You really take your life into your own hands when visiting the dentist, and NOBODY realizes how dangerous their procedures are. They even managed to pass a law saying that informed consent wasn't necessary for common procedures like anesthetic injections, CAN YOU IMAGINE? Who did they pay off and/or lie to to get that passed??? FUKKING UNREAL. I'm starting to get angry again, but unethical conduct is not to be tolerated, by ANYONE.


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-20-08, 00:05 AM (CST)
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19. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #18
 
   BOB, Was there pain during the root canal ? How can you be sure he didnt drill thru the root down to the nerve by accident ? I dont really trust any of them anymore BECAUSE THEY ALL LIE... You mean to tell me your dentist admitted he thinks it was the injection ? Have you ever got a look at your records ? My dentist took a pano xray and claimed in my record after my 4th visit in 2 weeks i had significant improvement.. That was a bullshit story.. In the 3rd week after 2 OS in the same day at 2 different places..the 1rst one took another pano and sent me to the other OS..it was there that i learned a piece of filling was in the molar socket... I saw the 3rd one every other week for 3 months with 0 improvement..Hes the one who sent me to the OMFS because he knew my anguish well.. The omfs did the search and possible repair surgery.. You may have read about that somewhere here before anyways nowhere in that report does it state that he removed the piece of filling.. maybe thats why the scar tissue was so large ? only after i asked him did he admit that yes he got it out.. Even had the nerve to tell me my nerve damage would not have happened if he had taken the tooth out.. You dont have to tell me about how fucking unreal things are ! Im still pissed off about the whole scenario.. I dont see why you should have to prove that your nerve damage was caused by the injection alone..Since you cant be 100% SURE WHAT THE HELL WENT WRONG..EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT YOUR LINGUAL NERVE IS DAMAGED.....


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-23-08, 07:49 AM (CST)
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22. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #19
 
   bowho - No, the root canal actually went very smoothly. He cleaned out the root in my first visit with no problems (and yes he did inject me during that visit but no injury occured this time). He put the temp on top and I went home, no problems. He used "RealFill" to fill the root... an inert, non-toxic substance for the most part. I researched this before he did the procedure. It was when he injected me for a second visit a week later that the injury occured. I went numb instantaneously and as you can see from my post above there were problems. Pain and pressure, so much that the liquid (articaine) squirted back up through the injection site like a guyser after he removed the needle. So no, I don't think it was caused by the root canal itself, just the injection.


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
May-23-08, 03:28 PM (CST)
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24. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #22
 
   Bob, yes that narrows it down to the injection !! I did read up on septocaine and it clearly states that nerve injuries do occur from that injection.. articaine must be the generic form ? Total bummer for you that all you went in for was to put the crown on...MY GOD !! Was that type of injection necessary for just placing the permanent crown ? All this nerve injury crap is frazzling my nerves completely ? I am beginning to think we should never go to dentist for the rest of our lives..

Serious complications have been associated with Septocaine. Long-term or transient paresthesia is among the worst of the reported side effects of Septocaine which occurs much more frequently than with lidocaine.

It should be noted that almost all recorded cases of long term numbness or parasthesia in a dental setting are associated with a mandibular nerve block type injection and simple infiltration injections are generally thought to be immune from such complications. For this reason many dentists have abandoned using articaine for mandibular nerve blocks.


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MaverickDMD
Member since Dec-14-07
120 posts
May-23-08, 01:56 AM (CST)
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20. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #18
 
   Ok. So what you're suggesting is that all dentists in the world refrain from giving any injections of local anesthetic to anyone for any procedure forever?

Local anesthetic injections have a very small risk of causing nerve injury, anywhere from 1:26000 to 1:158000. It will occur once in a dentist's 35 year career stastically.

Please tell us all how to do a root canal on a hot molar without giving an injection. The risk of death from general anesthesia is around 1:350000 and the cost would be above 8000 for a 2 hour hospital visit. Risks are there. Please tell practicing dentists how to practice to avoid 100% of all nerve injuries and we will happily take the advice and apply it on Monday morning.

Just tell us what to do and we'll take your advice.


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
May-23-08, 07:44 AM (CST)
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21. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #20
 
   Maverick - First of all your statistics mean nothing as injuries pertain to lower mandibular nerve blocks with ariticaine. We've already been through this... in FACT, Septodont's OWN study shows a 1 in 22 chance of lingual nerve injury from this particular procedure. YOU INSIST ON LUMPING IN ALL PROCEDURES, ALL NERVE BLOCKS, USING ALL ANESTHETICS, instead of focusing in on the use of articaine and lower mandibular nerve blocks. THE COMPANY ITSELF WARNS ON THE PACKAGE INSERT OF THIS PARTICUAR INJURY. Injuries from lidocaine are far, far, FAR less statistically. Not only that, but the risk of permanent injury from lidocaine is also reduced by a statistically significant degree. Now, Septodont is offering a 2% solution of articaine in Germany, because the 4% solution that has been used is causing so many injuries. The best way to try and prevent this horrific injury is to NOT USE ARTICAINE for lower mandibular nerve blocks, and inject VERY SLOWLY with constant communication with the patient if there is pain or discomfort, then STOPPING if the patient signals such. If only my dentist stopped when I started gagging from the pain of the injection, but nope, he just kept on until the carpule was empty. The pressure was so great in my jaw that the articaine squirted up through the needle hole like a guyser after he removed the needle. Was he neglegent in his procedure? I THINK SO.

Bob


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
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May-23-08, 08:05 AM (CST)
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23. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #20
 
   Maverick,

One more thing. Don't you think a dentist should be required to give informed consent before an anesthetic injection is given? You say the risks are there, but they are NOT KNOWN by the general public (ie. patient).


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MaverickDMD
Member since Dec-14-07
120 posts
Jun-27-08, 02:20 PM (CST)
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25. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #23
 
   You have to ask to what level, in percent that is, should informed consent go? Generally, it is accepted that 0.5% is the stated level at which consent is considered adequate. I know you don't believe in science or statistics, but even quoting the lowest level of chance of nerve anesthesia, of 1:26,000, this is getting pretty far out there in likelihoods. Probably at this level for a straight forward filling, one should include loss of the tooth, fracture of the jaw, anaphylactic reaction to the anesthetic agent, brain damage and death. The argument is should we scare the public by disclosing every single known downside of every procedure or just the ones that happen "commonly"? Frankly, I don't think most dentists know what the chance of nerve injury is and certainly, the average dentist is not aware of what the protocol is for patients so injured. Again, with lower block techniques as they are, there is currently no known way to avoid injuring the lingual or IA nerves.


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
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Jun-27-08, 10:26 PM (CST)
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26. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #25
 
   maverick,

To be clear, when talking about statistics I am only referring to lower mandibular nerve blocks given with articaine. When discussing this you always lump all nerve blocks using all anesthetics in with the 1 in 26,000 figure. In point of truth, the figure for paresthesias being caused by lower mandibular nerve blocks with articaine is 1 in 21, a figure that demands informed consent if not an outright ban on the procedure when articaine is used. This figure is from Septodont's own study.

http://www.nodentalpain.com/ArticaineParesthesia.html

Since Septodont has included a warning about paresthesias in with their package insert, don't you think a dentist should inform the patient of the risk? Septodont has certainly informed the dentist of it, so why not the patient? There is no reason not to unless one wishes to hide the truth from the patient. Given the danger of the this procedure it is unethical in the extreme to withold informed consent. I look forward to your response.

Bob


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MaverickDMD
Member since Dec-14-07
120 posts
Jun-27-08, 10:45 PM (CST)
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27. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #26
 
   Look Bob, I don't have any problem with you at all. In fact I feel really badly that you are suffering from what is a routine daily procedure that I perform. I perform about 15 lower blocks a week maybe more. I've been using Articaine for them since 92. I don't have any stats on my rates of injury but I can tell you that I've experienced I think 3 incidences of lingual nerve paresthesia all of which resolved in the past 17 years of doing this. Of late I've developed a better technique to give a lower block and I think it will diminish the chance on lingual nerve injury. Now give your head a shake here. I've been using Articaine for 17 years every day; it's been in use in Germany for 30 years. It was only a problem until it was introduced into the LSA, the Litiginous States of America in 2000. So either the rest of the world didn't have a problem with Articaine, or American dentists are inferior to the rest of the world. I think the problem is the needle injury not the drug. A dentist cannot in the LSA admit it was he who was responsible, it must be the big drug company who is to blame. So the ball rolls forward: patients also crave that it is the drug for hopes that they can receive a big pay out from the big company so everything snowballs from there. The rest of the world doesn't think like Americans so it is not a surprise that once this drug hit America that the world seemed to change. I'd get off your soapbox and look at the real cause of injury: the needle dart toss technique that is the gold standard for giving and regiving lower blocks. As I said, I'm about to publish a new lingual nerve sparing technique to help eliminate lingual nerve injury. The problem is I'm a winter writer and I'm pretty tired from work most nights, so it won't be until the fall that I get it up on line on a website. It will meet with a lot of resistance from the scientists out there but reading the reports on this site it will gain a lot of traction. So we shall agree to disagree Bob until then. Good luck to you until then. G.


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Bob
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Jun-27-08, 11:52 PM (CST)
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28. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #27
 
   Maverick,

So do you or do you not think it adivsable for a dentist to give informed consent when giving lower mandibular nerve blocks using aricaine? Your own personal statistics are the exception rather than the norm, although try telling that to the patients who suffered with the injury. It is horrific, akin to unpeakable torture, to those who suffer. So I ask you, is it unreasonable to require informed consent for this procedure?

Bob


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MaverickDMD
Member since Dec-14-07
120 posts
Jun-28-08, 01:02 AM (CST)
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29. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #28
 
   just answer the question: to what level is informed consent required? And to what end does that serve?


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
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Jun-28-08, 10:52 PM (CST)
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31. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #29
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-08 AT 10:53 PM (CST)
 
On EVERY level it should be required. My Lord... just the possibility of such a horrendous outcome from an injection should be reason enough to mandate informed consent, even if it were 1 in a millon shot (which it isn't). What are you afraid of? Why NOT tell the patient of the possibilities so they can make an informed decision about whether or not to proceed with it. It serves the PATIENT... and it also serves the dentist knowing that the patient has been informed. It might even serve to further protect him or herself from lawsuits (although you are sufficiently protected with or without informed consent). Informed consent should absolutely be mandatory... the possibility of paresthesia, dysesthesia, permanent nerve damage, facial deformity, infection, and DEATH should certainly be enough of a reason for informed consent... PERIOD!


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charlottefr
Member since Feb-22-08
213 posts
Jun-28-08, 06:39 AM (CST)
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30. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #27
 
   I perform about 15
>lower blocks a week maybe more. I've been using Articaine
>for them since 92. I don't have any stats on my rates of
>injury but I can tell you that I've experienced I think 3
>incidences of lingual nerve paresthesia all of which
>resolved in the past 17 years of doing this. Of late I've
>developed a better technique to give a lower block and I
>think it will diminish the chance on lingual nerve injury.
>Now give your head a shake here. I've been using Articaine
>for 17 years every day........

Sorry to butt in here..but why, oh why, don't you have any statistics on your "rates of injury"? You 'think' three of your patients have suffered lingual nerve injuries after they have seen you? Haven't you said often on this forum that these injuries occur only once in each 'career'..but you have had three incidences that you can recall of lingual nerve paresthesia in your own career?

The paresthesia of all three of your patients with lingual nerve damage resolved "in the past l7 years of doing this". Can you explain what you did to help those three patients through their recovery and how do you know that the paresthesia was resolved?


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Dr B
Member since Oct-6-06
736 posts
Jun-29-08, 05:24 PM (CST)
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32. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #30
 
   I frankly do not know why anyone would use articaine for blocks when even the Endodontists I know, who treat more patients in acute pain situations do not use it for blocks. Why use something that has more complications than another equally effective drug which does not?

Dr B


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
Jun-29-08, 06:41 PM (CST)
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33. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #32
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-08 AT 06:42 PM (CST)
 
Well, when one THINKS he may have seen 3 incidences of nerve parasthesia in 17 years of dental practice and he starts reading around here about what these people are saying about the torture of the injectional injury that articaine is causing, one would just ASSUME he would stop using it? Because that could be 3 or more in the next 17 years of practice?


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MaverickDMD
Member since Dec-14-07
120 posts
Jul-04-08, 05:00 PM (CST)
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34. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #30
 
   All 3 cases of paresthesia in my case resolved within the 3 month period. One took a week, the others 2 months. I know this because I followed them closely during that time. Permanent anesthesia is the rare form that will occur ultra rarely. No special treatment was required other than patience and time. I don't count the number of lower blocks that I do, but at this point it is well into the thousands, so I don't have an idea of success rate. What is your success rate in giving lower blocks?


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charlottefr
Member since Feb-22-08
213 posts
Jul-05-08, 04:34 AM (CST)
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35. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #34
 
   I was reading the "Nerve Damage from Injection" thread and you said in a post in Dec 2007..."I have caused 4 or 5 lingual nerve injuries in my 15 year career, all of which recovered but some took 6 months. I would suspect that most of them occurred on reinjecting an already anestheized area. I have since developed a safer technique of the IA nerve block that better avoids the area of the lingual nerve. This I will post on a blog site for perusal in the near future."

I'm sorry Mav...but I think it's unacceptable that it appears that even dentists don't keep track of the number of people who have left their offices with nerve injuries.

Post #98
http://www.sciential.net/dcforum/DCForumID1/194.html#98


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MaverickDMD
Member since Dec-14-07
120 posts
Jul-06-08, 00:41 AM (CST)
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36. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #35
 
   I see your point but you make it sound like there is a better alternative to the lower block injection -- there isn't. Since you don't have any training in dentistry or have probably ever given an injection once, I think you should tone down your attitude until you've walked a mile in a medical practitioner's shoes.


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Bob
Member since Aug-6-07
132 posts
Jul-06-08, 08:39 PM (CST)
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37. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #35
 
   Yes, and I would love to contact each and every one who was injured to see if in fact they recovered, and if so how long it took. Now everything Mav says is suspect I'm afraid. I am now of the opinion that most injectional injuries do NOT recover, although the intensity of the symptoms may diminish over time by a certain percentage. The ones that do recover probably have a mechanical injury... a needle stick into the nerve itself. As long as the nerve isn't completely severed it will probably recover over time. Problems arise when the nerve is chemically burned, destroyed into a mass of scar tissue. These injuries probably don't heal. No wonder Dr. Tony Pogrel, DDS., MD said surgery is not indicated for injectional injuries... the site is probably too large and the damage too great for surgical repair. Too bad for us... and to think that somehow the dental profession was able to persuade a judge that informed consent is NOT NECESSARY for anesthetic injections! Amazing... I wonder if Mav was one of the brave dentists testifying as to the safety of this procedure.


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
Jul-06-08, 11:27 PM (CST)
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38. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #37
 
   LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-08 AT 11:28 PM (CST)
 
Sorta makes ya wonder which one of US was his recovered injured patient ? And we all know that AMERICAN doctors banned from practicing here in the USA can just move to CANADA or any other country and continue on practicing there but of course they dont make the HIGH BUCK they used too..


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charlottefr
Member since Feb-22-08
213 posts
Jul-07-08, 06:23 AM (CST)
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39. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #38
 
   This is not comforting

Neco Cockburn, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Monday, March 24, 2008

Several hundred "rogue imposters" may be providing dental care in Ontario, according to the regulating body that oversees the province's dentists.

Irwin Fefergrad, registrar at the Royal College of Dental Surgeons of Ontario, said more co-ordination with government is needed to spread awareness of illegal practitioners, who often set up in cities with large immigrant populations, such as Ottawa and Toronto.

"This is not anybody with a golden heart or a bleeding heart. These are people that are actually running a cash business -- serious cash -- and harming the public," he said.

The public often doesn't know whether the person is a real dentist, Mr. Fefergrad said.

"The only time we ever get information on this underground economy that might be building is when there's some harm done."

He said problems that have occurred at unlicensed offices range from infection to PARESTHESIA, a type of paralysis.

more of this article... http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=2801c8a9-3862-463d-b845-e783f2e3cc93&k=25439


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bowho
Member since Nov-26-07
464 posts
Jul-07-08, 10:33 PM (CST)
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40. "RE: a Legal Perspective"
In response to message #39
 
   YEP ... It sure is a scary world to live in thats for sure...


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